The Truth about "Safety Schools" - Rachelle Hernandez

Rachelle Hernandez, vice provost for student affairs at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, joins the podcast to discuss helping students think about colleges where they will be "excited to go."

In addition to her work in higher education over the last 25 years, Rachelle's own son is currently a senior in high school, so this conversation, and the terms often used in college admission, are personal.

Rachelle discusses the concept belonging, and focuses on the importance of choices and options for students in their search.  Additionally, she talks about the term "safety" schools and why that label is not accurate, or helpful. She suggests great questions for students and families to ask as they look for good matches in their  college search and selection experience. 

Rachelle's professional accomplishments are too extensive to capture here, but suffice it to say she brings a wealth of experience, including prior roles at University of Minnesota and University of Texas. 

She is committed to and focused on student success and access as well as "fostering and supporting an engaged student educational experience and cultivating student connection and belonging in co-curricular and academic spaces." 

It's always a pleasure to spend time with the inimitable Rachelle Hernandez, so we hope you'll enjoy this one.

Transcript

00;00;00;09 - 00;00;23;23
Rick
Welcome to the Truth About College Admission Podcast. My name is Rick Clark. I'm the AVP and Executive Director of Undergraduate Admission at Georgia Tech and both our book and workbook, The Truth About College Admission, as well as this podcast, are brought to you by Johns Hopkins University Press. Hopkins Press connects a global audience of readers to trusted knowledge from leading researchers, scholars and educators.

00;00;23;23 - 00;00;27;25
Rick
To learn more about the press, visit Press Dot, JHU.

00;00;28;24 - 00;00;57;05
Brennan
And I am Brennan Barnard. I'm the director of College Counseling at the Khan Lab School. And today we are joined by our friend Rachelle Hernandez, Vice Provost for Student Affairs at Johns Hopkins University. Rachelle has more than 25 years of experience working in higher education, student services, student success and enrollment. And Rachelle most recently ran the admission offices at the University of Texas at Austin and the University of Minnesota.

00;00;57;05 - 00;01;28;17
Brennan
And after experiencing the climates of extreme cold and extreme heat, she has settled in the middle in Maryland. And I encourage you to listen as Rachel talks about this idea of safety schools and why we shouldn't say that and we shouldn't mean it. And listen for the truth about belonging belonging in college and why that's more important than finding this idea of some kind of safe school just to be safe.

00;01;28;26 - 00;01;51;09
Rick
Nice. And I've known Rachel for a long time. She's a good friend and colleague, and I always learn stuff from her and the truth that I wanted to just hit on was you'll hear her say time and time again, choices, choices, choices. And I think as parents especially and definitely as students as well, we can get very focused on a place, an idea, a statue, a gate, a bumper sticker or whatever it is.

00;01;51;09 - 00;02;05;00
Rick
And I think she just does such a genuine and sincere job of talking about the real goal, which is to have choices that you're excited about and what that means. So as you're listening today, really pay close attention to that.

00;02;05;05 - 00;02;10;03
Brennan
Definitely. Well, let's get at it. Rachelle, it's so great to have you with us today. Thanks for being here.

00;02;10;03 - 00;02;12;26
Rachelle
Thank you both. I'm really excited to be here with you.

00;02;12;28 - 00;02;18;01
Brennan
Thanks. So, Rachelle, can you just tell us a little more about the work you're currently doing at Johns Hopkins?

00;02;18;01 - 00;02;41;17
Rachelle
Yes, I'd be really excited to talk with you about it. So we have responsibility for student affairs and student success at the university. And what does that mean? It means that we're positioned to really make sure that our students are able to take full advantage of all that a Johns Hopkins University education has to offer. We really feel strongly that the work that we're doing helps our students to achieve their dreams, and we're paying really close attention to that.

00;02;41;21 - 00;03;02;07
Rachelle
A Hopkins education means that students can achieve whatever they dream possible, whatever opportunities they want to pursue. And we're also really focused on making sure that we're removing barriers to success for students. So when students come to college, they have a whole host of ideas and experiences that they want to engage in and they want to encounter. And we want to make sure that that's possible.

00;03;02;07 - 00;03;25;06
Rachelle
And what underscores that for all of us and I think that'll come up in the conversation today, is that we're really focused on community engagement and sense of belonging. We want all of our students to feel full agency in their experience, to feel a connection and the opportunities that come with being part of this community. I think that my colleagues across the country that are focused on student success share that goal for our students.

00;03;25;06 - 00;03;34;15
Brennan
Well, and now that Rachel is no longer directly running an admissions office, she's going to share all the secrets all the truths about college admission.

00;03;34;15 - 00;03;48;06
Rick
Well, and actually, on that note, the reason that we wanted to talk with you is just because you and I had a text exchange a couple of weeks ago and you were like, I think maybe you could write a blog or an article. And I was like, I've got an even better idea.

00;03;48;10 - 00;03;51;23
Rachelle
I did suggest that Rick! I remember suggesting that.

00;03;52;06 - 00;04;13;24
Rick
I'm going to work on that too. But we wanted to like actually hear your voice on this because you were referencing this idea of safety schools. And let's maybe first start by defining what that's traditionally meant, what is a safety school? And then we can get into the personal part of this that you have a son, right, who is a senior who's going through the admission process right now.

00;04;13;24 - 00;04;26;25
Rick
So I know you have put your finger on the fact that possibly safety schools are problematic or the term is. I want to talk about that, too. But before we do, can you just walk us through like when people use that term, what has it traditionally meant?

00;04;26;25 - 00;04;44;29
Rachelle
Well, I'm going to preface everything I say today. The way I think about these things is really from a student's access lens, because students go through the process of admissions, they're applying to schools, and then they get there like we really have to be thinking about the when they get here. What does that mean for students? And I think that starts in the search process, the choice process.

00;04;44;29 - 00;05;03;29
Rachelle
So when we think about the definition of safety school, I'm actually going to share with you something I grabbed off the Internet. So when you Google this, this is what our families see. I won’t call out the source, This isn't me, just because I don't want to point any fingers or anything. But it literally says in the definition, a safety school sometimes called a backup school.

00;05;04;04 - 00;05;27;09
Rachelle
So that connotation, that definition is what spurred my text to you. This is the definition that I found online. It's a college that you will almost certainly get into because your standardized test scores, your class rank and your high school grades are well above the average for admitted student. So that back up school for me that connotes that a student applying to a safety school isn't making a choice.

00;05;27;19 - 00;05;36;09
Rachelle
And this process, and particularly both from my lens from a student success perspective and my lens as a parent concerns me. Right. That it really does.

00;05;36;10 - 00;05;39;23
Brennan
Sure. Well, this idea of a consolation prize.

00;05;39;23 - 00;06;01;02
Rachelle
Right. That's exactly it. Yeah. I have to go somewhere because that's where I got in. And I think it takes away the work that our students have done to be prepared for college and for unity. It also takes away this notion and you all talk about this so much in your book, in your workbook, about making deliberate choices and thinking about what is important to students in their experience.

00;06;01;02 - 00;06;21;11
Rachelle
And really, when we look at it from a success lens, what we see across higher ed is that when students make a choice to come to a school, they're ready for that experience. They're ready to engage, they're ready to take advantage of and to participate in the kind of experience you have. And when students talk about the safety school concept or they got into their safety.

00;06;21;11 - 00;06;40;16
Rachelle
So to your point, Brennan, the consolation prize, it's well, I had to go here. Here's where I got in. And I think that puts the student in a position where they don't really recognize that they made a choice. Students should be applying to schools that they will go to, that they want to go to. Also, for students, when we think about them coming to a school, we want them to be excited.

00;06;40;16 - 00;07;02;16
Rachelle
This is one of the most exciting times for students. This is where they really see the ability to achieve those dreams that they've had. They want to be a teacher. They want to be a physician. They want to change the world. Right. And we know students do that and a whole host of different kinds of institutions. And it also, I think, takes away that concept of a good match or a fit for students because they're thinking, I didn't have other options.

00;07;02;16 - 00;07;04;18
Rachelle
Yeah. So that choice piece is really important.

00;07;04;28 - 00;07;19;03
Rick
Yeah, so true. And actually it's so interesting when you think about it. On the flip side, even with this idea that oftentimes what you'll hear when people talk about building a college list or the places that you might end up applying, like there's also this idea of oftentimes a reach.

00;07;19;26 - 00;07;20;02
Rachelle
right.

00;07;20;05 - 00;07;39;02
Rick
there are “reach schools”. And so, it really is interesting to think if you are admitted to one of those places, what connotations does that set up for us in terms of like, well, do I really belong here? And was this above what I might have aspired to otherwise? So, I mean, I think the language is a kind of a problem.

00;07;39;02 - 00;07;58;20
Rachelle
It is. You know, when you talk about safety and reach, it's funny you say that because there's a whole host of definitions about that online as well, that we want students to make a choice and we want students to say, I'm going here because this is where I want to go. And we really importantly, when our family's around that, you know, as my son goes through this process, I have opinions about where I think he should be or could be.

00;07;58;28 - 00;08;14;24
Rachelle
They may not match his. Yeah. And I have to respect that. The goal here as a family is that he goes to college and thrive and that choice is an important factor in regard to the student experience and how a student thrives and succeeds at an institution.

00;08;14;28 - 00;08;42;03
Brennan
Well, and it's so interesting because the families I work with and as I talk with students, sometimes I'll hear students say, I have these target schools, right? I have these schools that are kind of 5050. And should I have more reach schools? And my message is, okay, well, I mean, if you're really excited about these schools that are target schools, there's no reason you need reach scores if these are schools you want to go to.

00;08;42;03 - 00;08;55;19
Brennan
So let's reframe the whole idea of search. And to that point, what would you suggest for parents as they're talking with their students about building a list and visiting colleges? How would you recommend that they approach it?

00;08;55;19 - 00;09;12;11
Rachelle
Well, it's funny because as you know, I've been asked this question for years and now that I'm really focusing on student success and the enrolled side, it seems like the floodgates have opened. Everyone I know is contacting me and saying, Now that you're not overseeing admissions, we can ask you these questions and we're having these very deliberate conversations in our household as well.

00;09;12;11 - 00;09;38;00
Rachelle
So my advice to families in the way I would think about this is how we're thinking about it in our home. We're very realistic in our conversation with our son about where he is academically, and he's a strong student, but he doesn't know who else is applying to these institutions. So, you know, when you apply as a student or when you're a family, you're looking at these stats, you're getting a piece of the application picture and you're only getting a small piece of the applicant pool.

00;09;38;00 - 00;09;57;01
Rachelle
So all we can tell our student is we need to focus on where you are and what you're interested in studying and what you think might be a good opportunity for you. So instead of worrying about “Will I get in or not?” The days of automatic admission for selective institutions... you can't even guess at what those are. We read the stories in the headlines all the time.

00;09;57;01 - 00;10;21;04
Rachelle
I just saw a headline that was focused on a state flagship and it said, Students aren't getting into our flagship, but they're getting into a flagship somewhere else. So we make all these assumptions about what we think we know, what we actually know is as parents, we know our student, I know my son, and I'm really listening for his cues about what he's interested in, what size of school when he's visited, what he tells me feels good to him, what he's worried about, what he's not worried about.

00;10;21;04 - 00;10;38;23
Rachelle
So we're really helping him shape a list of schools and prepare to apply to schools that match the questions we've asked him. What are you interested in studying? And he says he knows. But we also talk about his other interests so that he has those opportunities. We've asked him where he wants to go to school. He says he knows that we're encouraging him.

00;10;38;23 - 00;10;52;11
Rachelle
And I have to be careful about this because I think the way that he's been advised by whether it be the school or the students or families around him is and this is why this came up. He came out when he said I was supposed to come up with a list of safety schools. We said, wait, time out.

00;10;52;11 - 00;10;57;21
Rachelle
But we're really encouraging him to be indicating schools on his list that he wants to attend.

00;10;57;21 - 00;10;58;23
Rick
Yeah, absolutely.

00;10;59;03 - 00;11;12;26
Rachelle
A variety of schools with different selectivity. And when he starts talking to us about, you know, they talk with us about likely admissible. Sure. That's a measure or a way to talk about this. But we don't know this year who's going to apply.

00;11;12;26 - 00;11;28;07
Brennan
We don't know. And it's about knowing yourself, too, right? It's about encouraging our students to know themselves. And I think my son just went through this. He's a college freshman and he ended up applying early decision. But he said, Dad, you know, I could be happy at any one of these schools.

00;11;28;08 - 00;11;29;12
Rachelle
That's so incredible.

00;11;29;13 - 00;11;40;14
Brennan
It doesn't matter where I'm going to end up. And they happen to be schools of all levels of selectivity that I know just having been in this field for a while. But I think that's a different way to approach it.

00;11;40;14 - 00;11;40;27
Rachelle
That's right.

00;11;40;27 - 00;11;44;22
Brennan
Are these schools that you're going to be happy and able to thrive at? Yeah.

00;11;45;01 - 00;12;00;06
Rachelle
I think it's really important and I will share. We just took a school off my son's list because he has talked about geographically not wanting to go to that school in that part of the country. And it came on his list. Someone recommended it. And so I point blank asked him, if you are admitted there, will you choose that school?

00;12;00;06 - 00;12;14;15
Rachelle
The answer was no. And it's not one of your choices. It's not a choice for you. This is not a badge of honor, “Where did I get admitted?” This is really “I'm making a decision for the next steps for my future.” And again, as families and as parents, this is hard for a lot of folks. I've done this for a long time,.

00;12;14;20 - 00;12;39;28
Rachelle
It's hard for me because it's your child. You want them to be happy. I think we have this opportunity, though, to talk about those key factors. You all didn't ask me to talk about your book or the workbook, but I am because you walk families through these really deliberate questions that put students in a position to tell us what's important to them right now and to really round out that conversation about how would you feel if a year from spring semester you were at the school and we'd be excited about it, right?

00;12;39;28 - 00;12;50;19
Rachelle
Because here are all the positive factors. So when he adds a school to his list that he says he wants to go to, that's where we go. We say, Tell me about what you're excited about. What does that look like for you? And that's what we lean into.

00;12;50;19 - 00;13;09;10
Rick
I love your question too about like, would you be excited if you were admitted there and I think that for parents, one of the biggest things is for our kids, probably the whole way they're growing up. I mean, we want to have the answers and it's easier sometimes to have the answers when they're littler and as they get bigger, the questions get bigger and the issues get bigger and the problems get bigger.

00;13;09;10 - 00;13;28;12
Rick
And we have less of the answers. And I think it's important to empower families and parents especially to say you're not going to have all the answers to your point. You're never going to be able to know how this is all going to resolve. But like the questions you ask are in many ways more important than having the answers, because that question is so valuable.

00;13;28;12 - 00;13;45;13
Rick
And I feel like taking the pressure off of parents a little bit to say listening well and asking good questions is just as helpful as knowing how it's going to resolve what you can't or won't and providing answers when it's unknowable in many cases. And I think the other thing is back to this idea of control, what you can control.

00;13;45;16 - 00;14;02;10
Rick
You do control the living room conversations, the conversations around the kitchen. And you don't control the committee rooms that are 500 miles away or 5000 miles away. And so working on starting just right there with the relationship and the questions and the listening, so important.

00;14;02;12 - 00;14;15;07
Rachelle
I think, too, as I hear you repeat that back to me, I think the way we end up talking about it, I ask the question of would you be excited? I think really the way that we talk with him about this is what are the aspects of that institution that would make you excited when you hear that you're admitted?

00;14;15;07 - 00;14;47;22
Rachelle
So it's really, again, as he's talked about it, we're looking for what are the reasons to say yes, what were the reasons that put this school on your list and, you know, when we hear the safety school is back at school, there's a lot of perception around that, too. And the kind of institutions that are back up, when we look at the different kinds of things that students want to study their experiences, that particular school that may be talked about in this frame as a back up school could be the most extraordinary option for a particular area of study for a student, for a host of reasons, because of their faculty, because of the size,

00;14;47;22 - 00;15;03;29
Rachelle
because of the location. So I think that's important. And then the other thing I would say is that I would much rather a year from now when someone asks, where did your son end up going and what's his experience? I want to be able to say he loves it, and so do we. Not, do you feel good about this?

00;15;04;06 - 00;15;08;22
Rachelle
I want us to feel good about it. And I want him to feel good about it because then he’ll be more successful.

00;15;08;22 - 00;15;24;27
Brennan
Well, if we're going to talk about safety in schools, perhaps what we should be talking about is, are you going to feel safe? Are you going to feel intellectually safe or are you going to feel physically safe or are you going to feel emotionally safe at that school? Rather than is it going to be a safety in admission?

00;15;25;08 - 00;15;39;24
Rachelle
And that really gets to the belonging piece when you see yourself at the school. Tell me a little bit about that. Again, what excites you about it? What features what are the benefits of attending this that are exciting to you? What are students telling you? I mean, I think we know that our students are looking at everything they're looking at, read it.

00;15;39;24 - 00;15;53;14
Rachelle
They're talking to their friends. And so they're getting a perception of schools that may be completely unknown to us. You know, we could read the same Reddit post and my son is going to have a different takeaway than I have. So I think to your point and again, it's hard for me not to put on my students access lens.

00;15;53;14 - 00;16;12;03
Rachelle
Belonging is really, really important. And so when my son chooses his school and that's that's how we're going to talk about it, if he's admitted to one school or all the schools, whichever, that's still one of his choices. So when he chooses his school, we want him knowing that he's choosing the place where he is going to spend the next four years.

00;16;12;21 - 00;16;28;10
Rachelle
And that's the foundation for what he sees himself doing this. He's not just thinking to next year. And a lot of our students, regardless of their experiences, they're thinking about next year. You know, we've got a lot of students across the country in a lot of families who are trying to figure out how are we going to make this work for the next year.

00;16;28;11 - 00;16;52;13
Rachelle
The reality, though, is they're all talking about what is this experience in this degree going to mean for your future? And does we think about it like that, that this is the foundation for our students future, having our students choose. This is the place I'm going to be at. And as a family choosing that, we're excited about that, that this was one of our choices, you know, and I say are because we have to get behind the students, not at all suggesting that we participate in other ways.

00;16;52;13 - 00;17;02;05
Rachelle
He's got to do all of his own stuff. That's his thing. But that we are in this in terms of supporting him and his choice, that I want him to be excited and to know that we're excited.

00;17;02;08 - 00;17;08;20
Brennan
Well, the truth is, Rachelle, he's very lucky to have you as parents and supporting him in these ways.

00;17;08;20 - 00;17;13;26
Rachelle
We tell him that all the time, Brennan! I you know, my husband, I tell him that all the time.

00;17;13;26 - 00;17;21;22
Brennan
I'm happy to tell him whenever you want to, just put him on the phone. Thank you so much for your wisdom and for for joining us.

00;17;21;23 - 00;17;30;21
Rachelle
Thank you. And thanks for entertaining this topic. Again, we're talking about our choices with our son and really excited to be framing it around choices.

00;17;30;21 - 00;17;34;16
Rick
Yeah, for sure. Thank you again. So good to get a chance to talk to you.

00;17;34;22 - 00;17;35;15
Rachelle
Thank you both.

00;17;35;21 - 00;17;39;22
Rick
We'll be back soon with another episode. Thanks for listening.